Turning enmity into an unmatched friendship: France and Germany

Today marks 56 years since the signing of the Élysée Treaty between France and Germany. The ambassadors of two countries talk to the Cyprus Mail about what it meant for Europe

By Esra Aygin

“MY HEART is overflowing, and my soul is grateful,” said French President Charles de Gaulle in fluent German after he and German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer signed the Élysée Treaty exactly 56 years ago today.

The revolutionary document of 22 January 1963 marked the beginning of peace and reconciliation between hereditary enemies France and Germany. It also changed the future of Europe, by laying the foundations of the European Union.

“We were able to overcome the pain of the past by looking at the future,” say René Troccaz, the Ambassador of France and Franz Josef Kremp, the Ambassador of the Federal Republic of Germany to Cyprus in a joint interview to mark the anniversary of the signing of the Élysée Treaty,

Almost every family both in France and Germany has lost at least one member to the centuries-old bloodshed between the two countries. How is it then, with so much pain and sorrow on both sides, that the two countries have been so successful in turning enmity into friendship and cooperation, and build a joint future?

Ambassadors Troccaz and Kremp explain that it was a process that required not only leadership but also a strong sense of ownership and involvement by the societies.

“The will of leaders was of course important,” says Ambassador Troccaz of France. “Complementary to that, both leaders were able to address their public. They explained saying ‘we need to jump this step and to reconcile. There is no way we can keep on the memories the remembrances of the war.’”

Of course, as every reconciliation process, the reconciliation between France and Germany took time.

“It was a process that started with the Élysée Treaty but it’s a long lasting process over many decades that involves the whole society,” explains Ambassador Kremp. “The pain has to heal and you have to grow closer to each other. And the idea of the Élysée was to bring people together, to overcome stereotypes and prejudice and to see the real person on the other side.”

With the Élysée Treaty, France and Germany committed themselves to discussing all important policy matters, including those related to foreign affairs and defense, and pledged to “arriving insofar as possible at a similar position” on all the important economic, political and cultural issues.

There was a special focus on youth and education, as de Gaulle and Adenauer knew very well that it is not possible to change the future without changing the way the youth are brought up.

“It’s a question of in what spirit you educate young people,” remarks Ambassador Kremp. “It takes a different approach, a different spirit to create change. This is why there was a focus on youth.”

There was a need to create joint policies, practices and messages to the youth, Ambassador Troccaz adds. “France and Germany tried to address very concretely, how to encourage learning the language of the other country. They organized youth exchange programs, cultural encounters, school twinnings and joint university programmes. A Franco – German university was established. We have dozens of fields of cooperation addressing the youth. I will dare to say it’s a system. It’s an organized system.”

The Franco-German Youth Office was one of the first things that were established after the signing of the Élysée Treaty. To this day, it has enabled millions of young German and French to meet and take part in exchange programs.

Since the signing of the Élysée Treaty, tens of joint commissions of experts have looked at all the school material in an effort to find common ground on how to present the past, approach it in a way that is constructive for the future and to overcome the prejudices.

The world’s first joint history book co-written by French and German historians was published in both languages in 2006 and is used in high school history classes.

Cooperation between the two countries has not been limited to youth and education. It has developed into a natural thing that currently covers all segments of society and life. France and Germany have a common defence and security council, a financial and economic council, and councils devoted to culture and environment. There is a Franco-German Brigade, a joint army corps, joint sports clubs, exchange programs between French and German diplomats at both countries’ foreign ministries, a joint television channel – ARTE, and more than 2,000 twinnings between German and French towns and cities.

France and Germany have also changed the way they commemorate the past. Instead of focusing on who was victorious and who was defeated in past wars, they commemorate both the French and German victims through joint gestures and joint monuments.

On 11 November 2018, to mark the anniversary of the World War I Armistice for example, French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel jointly visited the site where Germany signed the armistice in 1918, and then Hitler, in an act of revenge, forced France to accept defeat in 1940. As the French and German national anthems played, the two leaders laid a wreath and unveiled a plaque celebrating the reconciliation between their countries.

“You realise there was so much pain and sorrow on both sides that there is no room for triumph, says Ambassador Kremp, whose grandfather fought the French in the First World War and father in the Second World War. “You commemorate the victims – and not only soldiers, also civilians – on all sides.”

All these efforts have contributed to overcoming the hostility and reversing the public opinion in both countries. Opinion polls demonstrate that the French and the Germans, who viewed each other as the ‘enemy’ until 1960s, now regard each other as each others’ number one ally. And the two countries that have turned enmity into an unmatched friendship, now feel the shared responsibility to strengthen the European Union.

“It’s the whole. It’s the education, it’s the perspective and it’s the fact that people realise that in the world we are living in today, our future is European and our partner is Germany,” says Ambassador Troccaz. “When it all started in the 1960s, the subject was reconciliation and peace. Now the subject is Europe. It’s not only that we are neighbours and good friends. It’s that we have a project. That we built something together.”

“Now our focus is Europe,” agrees German Ambassador Kremp. “It is to help form Europe into something that can play a role in world stage on equal footing with other world powers.”

Fifty-six years on since the signing of the Élysée Treaty, today, Macron and Merkel will be signing the Treaty of Aachen to renew their commitment to each other and to pool their strengths for a strong and sovereign Europe that will safeguard the future for millions of Europeans.

“No progress is complete,” underlines Ambassador Kremp. “With every achievement, you have to fight to preserve it for the next generations. Many things are taken for granted today. My niece and nephew cross the border between Germany and France without showing a passport. They cannot imagine that what they have can be threatened and questioned again. We have to make sure achievements we make are passed to the next generation.”

https://cyprus-mail.com/2019/01/22/interview-turning-enmity-into-an-unmatched-friendship/

Schulz: A unique chance for Cyprus (The Cyprus Weekly, 11 March 2016)

By Esra Aygin

In an interview with the Cyprus Weekly and Havadis, President of the European Parliament Martin Schulz talks up the prospects of a peace deal on the island and hints that major developments will soon unfold

How do you see the prospects of a solution in Cyprus this year?

Schulz: This long-lasting conflict is one of the unsolved problems in the enlargement of the European Union. When we enlarged the EU in 2004,we had hoped that the Annan Plan would be accepted and that the whole island would join the bloc. But things developed differently. Now, there is a unique chance for unification. If this happens,we will finally complete the union of Europe.

How can the European Parliament and EU institutions in general facilitate a solution in Cyprus?

Schulz: This is one of the reasons why I will go to Cyprus in the next couple of weeks – at the end of March. I will meet with the government and with both communities to find out whether there is an option to help, to be helpful, to contribute.

Will you be visiting Turkish Cypriot leader Akinci during your visit?

Schulz: Sure!

Do you think EU institutions could help with the financing of a solution in Cyprus?

Schulz: If financial support could help, we are always prepared to discuss it.

There are concerns that a deal in Cyprus may be legally challenged unless certain provisions become EU primary law. Are these concerns legitimate?

Schulz: From a principles point of view, this is a question of self-determination on the island. If both sides, both communities decide to go for a reunification of the island and this is accepted in a referendum, I can’t see the European Court of Justice overrule such a decision. The question here is, whether there will be some details in the agreement that are incompatible with fundamental rules of the EU. But I can’t imagine that a member state of the EU would conclude an agreement, which is not compatible with the fundamental European rules.

There are certain derogations that sides might want to include in the agreement…

Schulz: I will not speculate about derogations because these are up to the two sides to discuss.

But if the two sides decide on certain derogations, would the EU accommodate these?

Schulz: This clearly depends on the compatibi-lity of the derogations with the basic rules of the EU.

Many people think this is the last chance for a solution in Cyprus – at least for a federal solution. What will happen if the solution process fails again?

Schulz: Then we would fail a historical chance. This is a historical moment. If we don’t achieve a solution now, then this will be a real failure. My feeling is that the two leaders are the two people who can pull this through. We should not forget that President Anastasiades was the man who supported the Annan Plan 12 years ago. He has a high credibility for really struggling and fighting for reunification. My feeling is that Turkish Cypriot leader Akinci is also very committed to a solution. I meet both men often, and I believe that if we don’t achieve a solution now, we will miss a historic opportunity.

There are efforts to open chapter 23 and 24 in Turkey’s EU accession negotiations. How will you overcome Cyprus’ veto on these chapters?

Schulz: The only way to overcome this obstacle is [for Cyprus and Turkey] to deepen their dialogue on the basis of mutual understanding and commitment. I want to add here that Ankara has never been so strongly committed to a solution in Cyprus for a very long time.

You see a strong commitment by Ankara to a solution in Cyprus right now?

Schulz: I spoke with the Turkish Prime Minister and the Turkish Foreign Minister just yesterday [on Monday]. And my feeling is, there is something mo-ving in Ankara. We aren’t where we want to be yet – and I can’t go into details to say why – but my feeling is, there is a certain movement in Ankara.

In terms of a solution in Cyprus?

Schulz: Turkey is discussing. I know that the Turkish government and the Turkish parliament are discussing concrete steps, which are not easy for Turkey. By the way, these are also not easy for Cyprus. But we had a long period without any dialogue [between Turkey and Cyprus]. But now, there are people speaking to each other and I know that there are a lot of contacts.Perhaps these are not very well known by the public. But there are things that are going on, that make me much more optimistic than I was in the past.

Are there contacts between the Republic of Cyprus and Turkey?

Schulz: Not officially but individually.

Do these contacts concern guarantees?

Schulz:I don’t want to make public too early what makes me optimistic. Therefore, I remain to be very general: There are talks on the road, which could lead to enormous improvement.

What message would you like to send to all Cypriots?

Schulz: I was born in a country, which was divided. It took 41 years for Germany to be reunified. Cypriots have a unique chance to do as Germany did, and reunify their island. In a time when so many countries are falling apart, and we are becoming more and more divided, a country that reunifies after such a long period of division will show that everything is possible. Our wishes are with the Cypriots of both sides.

http://in-cyprus.com/a-unique-chance-for-cyprus/

Move towards end game (The Cyprus Weekly, 12 February 2016)

By Esra Aygin

Seen from the public angle it has not been the best of weeks for the Cyprus settlement talks. Leaders President Nicos Anastasiades and Turkish Cypriot Mustafa Akinci have publicly differed over interpretations of what has been agreed and Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been cited as saying that the return of Morphou is not on the table.

But behind the scenes a lot has already been achieved and those involved in the negotiations are already thinking ahead to planning and implementation.

“We are done with the bulk of the work in four chapters – governance and power sharing, EU, economy, property, although a couple of important outstanding issues remain,” said UN Special Advisor Espen Barth Eide.

He said it had been agreed that territorial adjustment and guarantees would be tackled at the end “but that does not mean that they have not been touched upon. What it means is that the maps and figures part of territory will be at the end”.

Quiet work has already started on security and guarantees.

“The final conclusions of this will be in that last phase … I have been quite frequently in touch with Athens and Ankara and London and the Security Council and all the interested players, and obviously with the sides, to try to see how we can prepare that phase.”

Eide is upbeat on the initial outcome.

“When I started I thought it would be the most important and the most difficult. But now I still think it’s important but not necessarily the most difficult,” Eide said.

“Traditionally security has been sought to the detriment of the other side … So you have to find a new model of security, where I am secure and you are secure, and I don’t mind that you are secure because your security is not to my detriment, that we are secure together.”

Practical implementation

While the political deals are being sorted out, the focus is already shifting to the implementation stage.

“We are in the early stages of that now,” said Eide, when asked if they were already in discussions on how the solution will be implemented.

“We are now into the technical phase where we are working on a number of very important issues, but issues that are not really politically divisive … It’s funding, it’s the euro implementation in the north, it’s the acquis, it’s preparing for constitutional work, its thinking about implementation.

“All these issues must be done.And they will take months.”

The main idea is to ensure that everything is ready for the moment the political deal is sealed.

“We want to make sure that when we get to the phase where the final, truly political, difficult issues are settled, we have the framework for the rest already down and prepared and planned,” said the UN envoy.

“This is the phasing …what will happen immediately, what will happen in two months.”

A package solution for finance

One key aspect of preparation relates to the economics of a solution.

“The IMF, the World Bank and the EU Commission are here constantly now. There is a big delegation almost every week looking at different economic aspects.

“They are working on issues like introduction of the euro to the north, banking sector, viability, debt pension obligations, all practical issues of an economy and all this work will be factored into a solution.”

As regards financing, Eide indicated that they were looking at a combination of options from the public and private sector.

“We are looking into a package solution that would involve two forms of international public support, plus international investment. And the two forms are a combination of grants or donations and guarantees that can help the foreign private investment.”

Guarantees on government bonds from highly-rated countries or institutions can help countries borrow at lower rates. The US, for example, has frequently guaranteed Israel’s bonds.

“The private investor would say I can take this risk because it’s not so high,” Eide explains.

http://in-cyprus.com/42141-2/

Interview with Germany's Ambassador to Nicosia, Nikolai von Schoepff (12 July 2015)

Esra Aygin 

How do you read the results of the elections for the Turkish Cypriot leader held in April? What does the overwhelming support for Mr. Mustafa Akinci mean?

Schoepff: It shows that the Turkish Cypriots were frustrated about the developments they were faced with. Mr. Mustafa Akinci’s election is a clear ‘yes’ for a devoted, strong leader who would work for solution. I have met Mr. Akinci and you can immediately feel his vast experience, solution-oriented approach and determination. His election has created new hope and new enthusiasm on both sides of the green line. President Anastasiades has personally told me that the real change came with Akinci. And I think that way too. For this, everyone has to thank him. And of course, I also congratulate the voters in northern Cyprus for having demonstrated a clear preference for a settlement and becoming an inseparable part of Europe.

Is Akinci’s presence enough to render this process different from the previous ones that all failed?

Schoepff: There is a big difference in the process now. By electing Akinci, Turkish Cypriots clearly said ‘we want a different Cyprus.’ And I think the feeling in the south is similar. There is a growing sentiment among both Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots that they want a ‘Cyprus nation’ instead of being subordinates of Greece and Turkey. The ‘Cypriot’ identity has come to the forefront. The conditions have never been better and will never be better again. I believe the two Leaders are aware of this fact. I like both leaders very much. They are both very practical and both have the same vision for building a united Cyprus in Europe. They belong to the same generation, they are both from Limassol, they understand each other and who have both proven in the past that they pursue the same goal. My impression is that there is a big harmony between them. A united federal Cyprus would be a trade and business gateway between Europe and the Middle East and serve as a hub of stability in the whole Middle East and Arab region, which is inflicted by instability and challenges. The leaders see this. Cyprus is on the right path.

Do you think you will be the Ambassador who witnesses solution in Cyprus?

Schoepff: I am extremely hopeful that I will be. The process is moving forward very well and the situation has completely changed within months. We are hearing and seeing things that would be unimaginable two months ago.

What is Germany’s stance regarding and role in the negotiations process?

Schoepff: Germany is following the negotiations closely. Chancellor Merkel is in close contact with Anastasiades. Important German politicians including Foreign Minister Steinmeier will soon be visiting Cyprus and meeting with both leaders. Germany welcomes the resumption of the negotiations wholeheartedly and we wish the two Leaders the courage and wisdom necessary to maintain the current momentum and to conclude them soon. Since the new Cyprus will be a full member of the European Union it goes without saying that the settlement needs to be in line with the European Acquis. The EU and Germany stand ready to support the process if required. But the process is up to the two communities. A just and viable settlement can only be achieved by the two community Leaders.

The aim is to achieve important progress by the end of October or beginning of November and then to have a multilateral meeting with the participation of guarantors for thornier issues such as guarantees. Do you think this is a realistic expectation?

Schoepff: This all depends first and foremost on the progress made until then. As long as the two Leaders feel the sense of urgency – which they do at the moment – there is no need for timelines. My understanding is that both sides have agreed that guarantees will be the last issue to be discussed after all other aspects of a solution have been dealt with and all internal issues have been tackled. I believe that this is a practical approach. At the end of the day, this will be up the united Cyprus but I don’t think a united federal Cyprus would need guarantees. Cyprus, after a solution, should be like any other normal full-fledged EU member state.

What do you think about the first CBMs?

Schoepff: CBMs are important because they convey a strong message to the public and contribute to the building of the concept of co-existence and a joint nation. They make progress visible and tangible for the citizens of Cyprus and make their daily lives easier. In this way CBMs help to create a positive atmosphere, bring people together and to prepare the public for a solution.

Drawing on your experience from German reunification, what kinds of CBMs should the two sides focus on to bring the two communities together?

Schoepff: In Germany we strongly believe in the power of the private sector. I believe a greater interconnection between the two economies, more joint business projects and joint business promotion will bring people even closer together. It also helps to place Cyprus on the map of international investors. My recent trip to Germany with the two Presidents of the Chambers of Commerce was a big success in this respect. And this was the first time we promoted in Germany the whole of Cyprus. We had very good meetings in Hannover, Munich and Berlin. I believe that it is very important to develop business and economy sectors.

You have close relations with the Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce. How are your relations with Turkish Cypriots other than that? How active are you in the north?

Schoepff: Actually, the more I am here, the more I like the north. I have two aims here in Cyprus that I will tell you now. One is to set up a bilateral German-Cyprus chamber of commerce. And the Cyprus leg of it will of course be bi-communal and include Turkish Cypriots. We are already working with the Chambers of Commerce on both sides for this. The second is, I want to strengthen our office in the north, have a stronger presence and to be more active there.

What do you expect the biggest challenge to be in terms of the reconciliation of people again drawing from experience?

Schoepff: Germany knows about what division means. Reunification is a process. To be successful, it needs time. Decades after the fall of the Berlin wall, we still feel the difficulties of reunification as well as enjoying its benefits. The biggest challenge is to create an atmosphere of equality and mutual respect where nobody feels left behind. People who have reason to believe that their lives work is not recognized by the new state they live in will soon start to disengage and refuse to contribute to building a new society. Also, I am very much in favour of a joint political process in the united Cyprus. Politicians after a solution should appeal to both communities. Politics should serve as an instrument of unification rather than separation.

Do you have any indicators as to what the financial effects/benefits of a settlement in Cyprus would be?

Schoepff: All economic studies I have seen suggest unanimously that the economic benefits of a settlement will be enormous. There are three simple reasons for this: First, while the “frozen conflict situation” may seem relatively stable it still constitutes a political risk for international investors. Only if Cyprus succeeds in abolishing this risk factor will she be able to develop her full potential as a trading and business hub between Europe and the Near and Middle East. Second, the very small market size of Cyprus would be increased considerably and the hinterland for European exporters could be vastly expanded, reaching from Turkey to Egypt. Third, the settlement itself would directly trigger a number of public investment projects in infrastructure and administrative capacities. While these general effects of a settlement are widely known it still remains difficult to quantify the expected benefits more precisely. Although some reports have been prepared by academicians or researchers, no real professionals have ever looked at this issue.  In my view, the IMF is the most suitable institution to provide a macroeconomic framework analysis for the north and for the south. Such an analysis would greatly help to give us a clearer picture of the compatibility and the growth potential of the two economies. IMF could make an economic impact analysis, which would provide us with reliable data on the real benefits and financial needs of the unification of Cyprus. I believe this is crucially important at the moment. I believe it would make a great confidence building measure to commission the IMF with such a study.

Lastly, what can you say about the developments in Greece?

Schoepff: I don’t want to comment much about this issue but I can say that Europe will never let Greece go. Cyprus, on the other hand, has been very results-oriented in managing its financial crisis and has created a very positive perception. By going ahead with the necessary reforms Cyprus and with a solid financial policy, now has very solid financial figures and the economy has gone back to growth.

http://www.havadiskibris.com/Haberler/roportaj/kibris-dogru-yolda/60840

Eide: Individual right to property applies to current users as well as original owner (1 August 2015)

Interview with United Nations Secretary-General’s Special Advisor on Cyprus, Mr. Espen Barth Eide (30 July 2015)

Esra Aygin

Are we witnessing history?

Eide: We are witnessing a historic opportunity. And if you grasp this opportunity, you will make history. And I say you, because it is the Cypriots’ history and the Cypriots’ opportunity. Myself and my team are here to help, and we are happy to help because it’s very rewarding and interesting and fascinating to be in the middle of this. But at the end of the day, this is up to first the elected leaders of both communities and then the people of both sides. The historic decision will come in two phases. First, hopefully the decision by the two leaders to agree and announce and recommend a shared deal, and second, for all Cypriots to vote on whether they agree with this or not. And only then we know whether history has been made.

Your statements are always very positive and optimistic. Don’t you fear that you might be raising the expectations too much?

Eide: But it’s not only me, your leaders Mr. Anastasiades and Mr. Akinci are both making very positive statements. They are also doing things that have never been seen before. I think few people watching them would think this could not work. I think it’s important to convey that something very serious and real is going on. The reason for my optimism is the spirit and atmosphere of the talks. But of course, it is not a done deal. I cannot guarantee this will work. We have a long road ahead and many things to be done. But with the two leaders, the chemistry they have developed, their pragmatic problem-solving attitude, it’s the best opportunity in many many years. I am optimistic but I am also realistic. It is a window of opportunity. Windows, as you know, can be open as well as closed. So it’s important to use the opportunity while it remains open. And it’s a responsibility of all Cypriots. Don’t leave it all to the leaders. You need the leaders to lead, but you also need the people to engage and think about this…

And whether it remains open may not be decided only internally. You can never exclude some external shock. Not that I think of anything particular but it’s always a risk.

What led to the positive spirit? Is it more to do with the leaders, the timing, or the international conjuncture?

Eide: I think it’s many things and I think the stars are very well aligned, which is not necessarily by design. It may be by coincidence or luck. The international support is massive. You have a government in Turkey that clearly wants to solve this problem and it repeatedly states that at the highest level, including Erdogan…

At your meetings are you convinced that Turkey wants to solve this problem?

Eide: I strongly feel that Turkey wants to be a constructive partner in solving the Cyprus problem, which they would like to go away. So does Greece, so does the United Kingdom, so does the UN Security Council. I was there last week and I met with the Security Council together with Lisa Buttenheim. We presented the state of affairs and what we are doing. And every single member, 15 of the 15 took the floor and spoke very favourably and encouraged the leaders, and all of them said in different phrases that this window of opportunity must be grasped, and that they are there to help. As you know, the European Union is very supportive. So the international support is very strong. At the same time, the circumstances in the neighbourhood, the very dramatic situation at the Middle East I think, has led some Cypriots to think that maybe maintaining a non-solution is not very smart. In a situation where Syria is collapsing, where there are big problems in Iraq, major transformation is going on in many countries including Turkey, people think ‘is this a moment to remain divided or is this a moment to unite.’ Which is a security argument. But there is also an economic argument, which has become clearer. The economy of scale of one country is better than to have two economies. And particularly, with the hydrocarbons, it became clear that you may now, as Cypriots, be entering into an age where this will be a major feature of your economy. And it’s much better to deal with that together in cooperation without the geopolitical conflict looming over it. And I can add to that, that in my other job in the World Economic Forum, I can say many investors are looking with interest at Cyprus because it’s a perfect location for Middle Eastern and European business operations if it is unified. But today, the investors don’t want to come here because of the political problem. So by keeping this non-solution for decade after decade, you have generated an opportunity cost for yourself that you can get rid of. So that is the circumstance. Then you can add to that the election of Mustafa Akinci. Akinci came with a clear problem-solving attitude. Akinci and Anastasiades – the two Limassolians- agree that we have to grasp this opportunity. These two gentlemen from the same city have a shared vision for the future, which is very much why I dare to be as optimistic as I am. And yet one more thing: Over the last months I have seen something extremely positive, which is public recognition and genuine recognition of the suffering of the other side, which I think has been missing in Cyprus at least at the highest levels. The elected Turkish Cypriot leader is able to say that more Greek Cypriots suffered in 74 than we did. Somebody like Ioannis Kasoulides is saying the same thing about the 60s, which is I think absolutely imperative in order to overcome the historic grievances. Yes your grievances are true. And this goes for both sides. It is a shared experience. This is far more important than the specific details of the negotiations because this creates an atmosphere that is highly important.

There are various allegations about the property issue in the media. It is being reported that a property commission already exists and that only the property rights of the original owners will be recognised. What is going on in the property issue?

Eide: Some of the news are absolutely blatantly wrong. Completely wrong.

I will say very clearly that the property commission does not yet exist. There is an idea to set it up if there is a settlement. The property commission that the leaders declared is an idea about the future – a commission that will be set up if there is a solution. So that is absolutely wrong. And as the leaders just declared, there is an individual right to property and this right is recognised. That right applies to current users as well as the original owner. That right will be respected, but the remedy by which it will be respected will vary depending on circumstance. It could be reinstatement, it could be compensation it could be exchange. But it’s very important to understand that the right may be on both sides at the same time – it is not either one or the other. The important thing is, if somebody has a right, that right will be respected – the right that exists on both sides and of course all sides. The point is that, the right to property will be respected and remedies by which it will be respected will be according to certain criteria.

Will the envisioned property commission decide on those criteria?

Eide: There will be clear criteria and the criteria and principles will be included in the deal. The sides will of course negotiate the criteria. If somebody tells you the criteria have been decided on, they are wrong because we are not done. This is a lot of work. But it is possible to respect these rights without creating a conflict between individuals and that is what we are trying to achieve.

Another allegation over the last few days is that all settlers will be sent back to Turkey.

Eide: The issues of citizenship or who will be the citizen of the future Cyprus is still on the table and it is an issue with many dimensions to it. I cannot say anything more than this: What we are creating is a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation as stated in the 11 February joint declaration and based on the principles and the values of the European Union. Of course, an important part of these values deal with people - the human rights of the people. So any solution to people has to be in line with European principles of human rights.

Former Turkish Cypriot chief negotiator Kudret Ozersay criticized the increased role of EU in the negotiations process and stated this could jeopardise the bi-zonal, bi-communal character of the federation. How legitimate are these concerns?

Eide: Thank you for asking. I know Kudret Ozersay well. I see him as a friend. He is an experienced and knowledgeable person. But on this particular point, he is wrong. Bi-zonality and bi-communality is an overarching premise for the discussions we are having. That is very clear from the 11 February declaration, and it is known and accepted by the Turkish Cypriots, the Greek Cypriots and the UN. That is not going to be negotiated. There will be a solution that is bi-communal and bi-zonal. That is certain. So that is not correct. As the 11 February declaration also stipulates, all of this shall be in line with European values and principles. You don’t have to be either a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation or in line with European values and principles. These are not in conflict. The assumption that you are either European or a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation is not true. The two sides and the UN are now working so that bi-zonality and bi-communality is true not only on the day of settlement but in the long run.

And the European Commission is fine with this and they are on board?

Eide: Point one, yes. Point two, they are not negotiating.

But they would have to accommodate a solution…

Eide: Exactly. But the two sides, with the help of the UN, are working to find a settlement that fully respects all the elements in the 11 February declaration: bi-zonality, bi-communality and European values and principles. In order to do so, we have invited jointly the European Commission to help us. So Junker and Mogherini visits were all about how can the EU organize their support. But the negotiations are between the two sides and led by the UN, and we want to come up with a solution that is fully bi-zonal and bi-communal and that is also fully respecting the European principles. The point is that we want both. We don’t want to choose. Bi-zonality and bi-communality are characteristics of the new federation, which will be an EU state. It’s not that the European Commission is going to impose on us a deal. This is a deal sought by the Cypriot leaders, who want the deal to be in line with European values and principles but also fully in line with the principles on bi-zonality and bi-communality. Nobody in the Turkish Cypriot side is giving up on bi-zonality and bi-communality. But equally importantly, there is nobody on the Greek Cypriot side demanding that they give it up. So when I talk about a European solution, I mean not only an EU member state, but also a modern, democratic country that will respect individual rights and everybody will have the same privileges as other EU citizens.

I know you are in contact with all three guarantor powers. Do you have indications that it is possible to find a formula that would be acceptable to all sides and that would address everyone’s concerns?

Eide: Well I think so. But I cannot promise, because we are still in the early days. I have these contacts and I know the key players at these countries well. But we have to understand that this issue can only be solved at the late stage of the process. In order to change the troop presence or the guarantee status, you need to know that we are close to a settlement that both communities are comfortable with. Because I think the essence of a settlement is that Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots feel confident that this settlement is not only good for now, but is good in 50 years. Turkish Cypriots should feel that there is no reason to fear that the 1960s or that the 15^th of July 74 will repeat themselves. And Greek Cypriots should feel that they have no reason that the 20^th of July 1974 will repeat itself -  and not because of military stuff but because they believe in the new federation. The new state should give this feeling of security and trust. Turkish Cypriots should feel that their Turkish Cypriot identity will be protected by the federal state and the constituent states, and that the other community is not going to use this to rob them of certain rights. And the Greek Cypriots should feel that they are not under the shadow of a foreign troop presence that makes them uncomfortable. And if we achieve that – if the new state gives this feeling of security and trust to the citizens - which needs to be achieved inside the talks - then we can talk about security. When people ask me about security they think they will get the military answer. But the real feeling of security and trust is in the deal. People should feel secure not because of troops but because of the structure of the new state. That is the type of security that will lead the hard security to change.

And you have reasons to be optimistic that we may arrive at that point?

Eide: That is what I feel.

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